Hello All,

I'm so happy I found this site!

Currently, I am expecting a BRT puppy late this year and while I have wanted a BRT ever since meeting one 2 years ago, I'm having doubts.

Non-concerns are the time, effort, and funds that raising a BRT will entail. In fact, one of the reasons I wanted this breed was because it's rather high-maintenance in terms of its need for intense contact with family.

That said, perhaps I am naive when I say that I DON'T want a dog with aggressive tendencies...I'm scared now that I've been deluding myself into thinking that with intense socialization a BRT will be stable and NEVER EVER BITE (of course I understand mouthiness as a puppy). I'm trepidatious that he will be great as a puppy, we'll do "all the right things", and then at two years old I'll be sitting at a cafe with him or at a park and he'll lunge at someone just walking by. Or, God forbid, attack his owner?!

I DEFINITELY plan on muzzle-training him (mostly in case of injury, vet procedures, etc), but DO NOT plan on doing shutzhund (although I don't think there is anything wrong with it and in fact maybe I am being irresponsible by not training him for that??)...

Basically, I need either reassurance or a big wake-up call.

Thanks for all your thoughts and input.

Who are you getting a puppy from? why are you getting a male and not a female? what experience do you have with working dogs and males in particular? Has anyone explained socialization and its importance to you? what about rank and dominance?

Hi Anna,

After reading your post I am wondering why, with all the worries you have, are you even considering a BRT that was bred as a working protection dog?

Aside from that, any dog that is not properly socialized and educated has the potential to behave aggressively, even toy dogs can be fiercely aggressive.

From my experience as a new BRT puppy owner, they are not any more high maintenance then most family dogs. My Welsh Corgi was far more demanding on family time. As to expense, I think it's safe to say that reagrdless of breed the general cost of caring for a dog is pretty much the same.

You could buy a tea cup poodle that is a great puppy, and 2 years later while you are sitting in a cafe or park with it , suddenly it snaps at you or a stranger and breaks flesh. Ask yourself this...does any dog breed come with a guarentee they will never bite?


Perhaps a dog breed that was not bred for protection work would ease your trepidation?
I wouldn't confuse intense family contact with pack structure and socialization and I wouldn't confuse an inherent drive to protect with misplaced, uncontrolled aggression. I'm no expert, just my opnion.

I think if you go to the "your dogs" section of this message board you will get a wonderful and informative view of life with BRT puppies and older dogs. Many of the owners have small children and live in big cities where their dogs are around lots of noise and strangers. Some of us have service dogs or therapy dogs. Maybe these real life accounts of life with our BRTs will ease your trepidations.
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Thanks for your responses--quite helpful.

The breeder (A Russian woman from NY State) explained the importance of socialization to me and did inquire re my experience with working dogs. I had a black lab who passed away three years ago, but she was extremely calm, gentle, etc. BRT's attract me because they are supposed to have calm temperments and I think my black lab was the exception, so I'm hesitant to get another black lab. Plus, it was hard getting over her passing and I'd like to have a completely different breed. I have already contacted several trainers who are willing to work with me. If I didn't have access or funds for professional help, I'd never even think about adopting a BRT puppy.

I must say I'm confused about the term "rank", although reading some of the posts here have helped somewhat. The breeder and I discussed male vs female and she suggested male because their protection instinct is not as strong as the females?? This seems to contradict what I've been reading here and also seems illogical to me.

I did look at the My Dogs section of the boards and it was heartening to see all of the wonderful experiences people are having with their BRT's...they are truly magnificent dogs.

I went through the same feeling when my 15 year old Corgi died last year. As much as I love Corgis I just couldn't get another one...just too painful.

So I went BIG....or maybe I should say AMAZON! LOL.
My BRT puppy-girl is not petite.

I think male BRTs are genetically wired to be more dominate/protective and the females more nurturing, although they are protective as well. Does that make sense?

I know I am bias, but Russian Bear Kennels is amazing. Helene has an intuitive gift when it comes to placing her puppies with familes. I always know if I have any questions or concerns the RBK family will be here to help.

Good luck. I hope you over come your fears.

I would never sell you a male - you dont have the experience or the background to be able to handle one. This is nothing against you - but it is FOR my puppies. I want my puppies in forever homes and when young males exhibit rank and dominance and scare their inexperienced owners they are given up and this is not good for my "grandchildren". The BRTCA knew of or had to rehome over 35 young males between 9 mos and 2 yrs old last year alone. No telling how many others had to be through private or other public adoption or rescue services. I dont know the stats and circumstances for all of them - but it is too coincidental that this is also the age range for exhibiting rank and dominance.
I dont think a male is the right sex for you - this is JMHO. You are not secure or confident in your decision - this also doesnt bode well for the long term.

Females can be very loving and also protective - but they are great in the family and for first time people - as we guarantee for hips, health and temperament this is a very important point for us. We push for proper temperament and mental and physical stability in our breeding stock and in all our puppies - both imports and homebreds.

Males can also be very loving and great dogs for the family and for individuals - but they are NOT for the new or inexperienced brt person. I havent had to rehome a male yet and I dont want to - I like my pups to have forever homes and I do everything in my power to make sure this happens from the beginning.

With all my respect I disagree with all of you.
Anna should not get BRT, period. Nothing personal.
But if you are unsure and nervous, this breed may not be for you.
…Regardless of male or female.
Actually based on what experienced (20 + yr) BRT breeders are saying is Female more aggressive than male BRT. They are less powerful , they will do less damage but they’re angrier when there is a danger.
No one can say I am not socializing enough my dogs. We take them to the Malls, black and Asian neighborhoods, adult day cares, walk only streets, dog classes training , parks , neighbor houses ….and so on.
I don’t have a lot of experiences with this breed, just what I have. But for now I can tell that I needed twice more effort to control female than Male BRT.
I think Female is driven more on her motherly instincts , so at some point she will treat you or your family as her kids and will try to protect them as her own puppies. ….and you know how bitches protect their litter.
On another hand, male treats you and family more as his friends. So, it gives him to think longer before any attack. (Think of a people, Men always need more facts and analysis and Women are more emotional. …..Please , I am not Chauvinist or sexist , I do love women but we are all different)
I may not be correct, but those are my observations so far while owning those dogs.

Thanks.

you are right Leo - I dont think a brt is for her at all - but I have had better success placing females with families and inexperienced people - remember - Master is not even a year old yet and has not come into "himself" yet - so the best is still possibly to come for you!!

But females can and will be protective - more than males - no - different - yes. Just like the human race - males and females see and react differently to what is either a real or perceived threat. I have the reaction time of a slug so I dont necesarily catch on to "sticky" or unsafe situations as fast as most people would (no -honestly - I dont react like most people) - so I have to be far more alert with my dogs when I am out with them so that they dont react without my being aware of why or to what they are reacting - but Ed and Missy are reflexively much faster than I so they can be more relaxed around the dogs as they can respond from zero to sixty (of course they are both Barneys and overreact to a lot of stimulus - as opposed to me who is still on zero ) - I have had my share of "oh shit" moments -and dogs can be the same way - not every dog has a hair trigger like Iza, Ed and Missy and not every dog is as unaware as me at times and most are in between - but males can be rank and dominant and the females usually are not (IN THIS BREED) - Iza loves her dad and is protective of him - this is not the same issue as males have and has nothing to do with socialization - she is guardy of you regardless of the socialization -

Well, from a scientific standpoint, testosterone is far more stimulating than cycling estrogen.

Using anecdotal stereotyping of female dogs and humans to make a point is full of holes.

Female humans/canines may get moody and pissy when they menstrate, so the swing is often embellished because the rest of the time they are, generally speaking, more passive and less aggressive. You can't confuse a nurturing behavior with agrression.

Males on the other hand that are intact (humans and dogs) are constantly under the infulence of testosterone. Think bar fights and brawls and jealous rage and a fierce desire to pound chests and piss.

Looking at the scientific facts, males are genetically programmed to be more agressive and stronger.

When it comes to "protection", a family pet, regardless of sex, is usually a team player.
There are always exceptions of course, like breed traits and mental issues.

Interesting stuff.

Careful Bonnie - your Bra burning party is showing

I dont think Leo was trying to be a chauvinist(sp) - but there is a belief in a lot of circles (I am not one of them) that the bitches can be more protective or guardy - using your barfight analogy though - piss off a woman and they hold a grudge - a man gets in a fight and the loser (and sometimes the winner) will buy the other guy a drink when it is over - so the rage or fight or testosterone "kick" will flare up and be over - but women tend to simmer (think of my daughter in Afghanistan - piss her off and you will regret it for life!! - literally!! ).
I tend to be a slow burner - it takes a LOT to piss me off - but when you do..............and that has nothing to do with heat cycles - that is my genetic makeup - (Alyce on the other hand is one to mark the calendar for and be gone when she cycles ).

oh what the heck - I may as well get in on this.

All BRT's aren't the same and I think who you get your BRT from and who its parents are is something you really should be careful of.

I have three that I got from Helene and I can tell you that Fainia and Gia are very different. Gia is very sweet and although she will go right into protect mode it is very differnt than Fainia. Fainia is very assertive all the time and when she goes into protect mode - well - I feel very safe! Now I know that they are a year apart in age but they definately have different personalities. From what I have heard Gia is very much like her mom Diva in nature. I love them both with all my heart!

I think something that Anna should check into if she hasn't already is who the parents of the puppy are and what the pedigree looks like. Find out who else has a dog from these parent and get some references. Of course this is provided she still plans to get a BRT. If the parents have been shown - someone may know something about them.

just my two cents !

Bra?

What's a bra?

*flex*

I totally agree with you!

If the breeder tells that females are more aggressive - possibly by her bloods that's right!
And I would advise to future owner in this case to call the other owners of puppies from this kennel to make a decision if this dog is for her!

But let's be honest and realistic here.

Some breeders only think they know what they are doing.
Thinking any female is more aggressive than an intact male just because they get a little bitchy during their cycles of menstration and also confusing the nesting/nurturing instinct with "being more aggressive than males" is ignoring the fundamental truth that in the big picture male intact dogs are the more aggressive sex by genetic design.

Variables do matter, of course, and that is why a breeder like Helene is so prudent.

A neutered male is a whole different ballgame from an intact male.
A spayed female is different from an intact female.
An intact male is different from an intact female.
A spayed female is different from an intact male.
A neutered male is different from an intact female.

The only time the playing field is remotely leveled is when both sexes are fixed.

The norm from a scientific standpoint is that males are more aggressive than females.
I will bet the farm that a breeder who thinks they are breeding intact females that are more aggressive than intact males is grossly embellishing the natural mood swings of the average female. Society as a whole tends to do that, with canines and humans. I know for a fact that when I had PMS, I was not like a pit bull wearing lipstick.

It's all about the hormones.
Aside from genetic non-normal markers (like transgender), testosterone always trumps estrogen when it comes to inherent factors of aggression. And that is why, from what I have observed, Helene intuitively screens and identifies who is a candidate for a male BRT.

Now where's my damn bra?


Don't worry, I'm not going to post any more.

Actually Bonnie - everyone who has posted a reply has made a lot of sense - Leo for pointing out to me she really shouldnt have one of either sex, you for pointing out the obvious, me because I say so , Anna B. because there are indeed lines out there that are different - whether it be regional or by sex (there are what is called the St Petersburg vs Moscow lines in Russia, of course the Siberian and Ukrainian etc that all have inherent weaknesses and strengths too), Dotti because she agrees with me and all the others who have read this as well. We have all formed our opinions and base our decisions on them. I hope Anna reads this in the way it was intended - not as an attack on her but to help her decide for sure how she wants to go on from here. I hope this also helps any others who are reading and thinking of a brt in the near or far future.